Re: CIMESP-Results Fwd:

Subject: Re: CIMESP-Results Fwd:
From: bill thompson (
Date: Sat Nov 05 2005 - 22:54:45 EST

--- Eliot Handelman <> wrote:

> The interesting
> problem is whether music you like reflects the
> structure of favorite"
> first, in which case the "form" of
> music (reflecting a cognitive order) is not anything
> like ABA at all.

i like the perspective you're taking on this, but does
our memory of a piece (however that's structured)
EQUAL the structure of the piece? it sounds like what
your talking about is only valid in terms of our
recollection of it.

or maybe we're having a Cartesian moment here, where
on the one hand are the 'facts' of the work, that this
sound follows this sound follows this sound, and it
can be analyzed outside of time via a score/computer
and some people will only recognize THAT as the real
structure...but on the other hand is our experience of
it which is variable and subjective and influenced by
factors such as our familiarity of the material (if
the piece is following a conventional pattern or one
we're aware of, or if we've heard it before) or if
we're familiar or unfamiliar with the sounds
themselves and thus being distracted by those details
away from perceiving the form, or if we're
anticipating parts we like or don't like etc.
and so our experience of the form doesn't necessarily
equal what is available in the 'facts' as they are
often analyzed outside of the real-time experiencing
of them (ie listening to the work) and that THAT
experience would actually be the form of the work
within our experience.

but that's still all in real time. so does your idea
only work so far in its reflecting back on our
experience of the form, or do you have ideas of how it
is during our initial experience?

also, wouldn't our experience of the piece and its
form, as we become more familiar with it, change how
we experience the form? so that our sense of it's
'form' develops/changes as we become more intimate
with the work...and is unique from individual to
individual, based on their experience of it
(influenced by all the aspects that would lend them a
unique perspective)?

i think you're on to something as far as a recalling
of a piece, but i'm not sure that that equals its
structure before or outside of that recalling, or
after repeated listening and/or study. if so, wouldn't
that be saying that the structure of a piece only
exists in our memory of it? or am i missing the point?


"The more you think about things the weirder they seem." -Calvin

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