Re: Re : (junk yard dog in) hidden place

Subject: Re: Re : (junk yard dog in) hidden place
From: Michael Gogins (
Date: Wed Sep 14 2005 - 18:10:15 EDT

What I meant was that we, too, have respect for our tradition, including its demand for formal innovation. Those with no respect for their tradition sooner or later leave that place and go to a better one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Gogins <>
Sent: Sep 14, 2005 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Re : (junk yard dog in) hidden place

I think it's better to say that we have a tradition of innovation. It's the worth and impact of this aspect of our tradition that we are examining, no?

I.e., to say "_everything_ must be new" means that I cannot have 'a _constant_ demand that everything be new' (that would be self-referentially inconsistent), but we have something similar, a demand that our music be innovative.

There are other constants in our musical tradition such as 12TET, pianos, etc., etc... but we do have this push for innovation and we do have innovation.


-----Original Message-----
From: lawrence casserley <>
Sent: Sep 14, 2005 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: Re : (junk yard dog in) hidden place

On 14 Sep, 2005, at 18:59, Michael Gogins wrote:

> With respect to music history and innovation, there are (at least,
> broadly speaking) two situations. Western art music has a particular
> kind of historical consciousness that glorifies innovation. In the
> music of other cultures (not that I'm an expert), there are different
> kinds of historical consciousness. I know enough about some
> non-Western-art-music styles to know that musical innovation occurs in
> them and is important, since there is an obvious sequence of styles
> from generation to generation, and obvious cross-cultural influences,
> even predating Western influences. But it's not quite the same thing,
> the same feeling of being driven by or out of history, not the same
> insistence on innovation.
Could this be put another way? In some of these cultures at least there
is more emphasis on being part of a tradition - each artist interprets
the tradition in her/is own way, so a constant evolution occurs, but
the respect for the tradition always remains.

OTOH, in Western culture, at least since about the 18th century,
iconoclasm has been the driving force - history is bunk! This seems to
coincide with the development of science - the idea of continuous
advancement of knowledge as the driving force of our culture.

In this model there is no stability - this week's theorem will be
disproved next week - only innovation has meaning.

Just a thought.


Lawrence Casserley -
Lawrence Electronic Operations -
Colourscape Music Festivals -

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