Re: Mordus du son: pyo 0.01 est arrivé!

From: Andres Cabrera (mantaraya36@gmail.com)
Date: Thu Sep 23 2010 - 04:05:55 EDT

Hi,

I also think that Python has a huge amount of modules (e.g. numpy)
which can be used for audio processing and research, which you might
have to build yourself on other systems.

Cheers,
Andres

2010/9/23 Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <tremblap@gmail.com>:
> If I can jump in:  Python took me 3 hours to get fluent in with my 17 years of Max, Csound and C coding.  Probably because of the latter ;-)
>
> After 3 years of SC, I am still puzzled with most of the syntax. Just check the last thread on Twitter tunes on their list, there is some seriously cryptic stuff on there!
>
> pa
>
> Le 2010-09-23 à 00:24, Bernardo Barros a écrit :
>
>> Hi, Oliver.
>>
>> What do you find complicated in SuperCollider comparing to Python? I
>> use and like both.
>> Is it the separations between language and server in SC?
>> Or because you can do the same thing with multiple syntaxes?
>> Just curious :-)
>>
>> 2010/9/2 Olivier Bélanger <belangeo@gmail.com>:
>>> Wow... what a mess for a release!!!
>>>
>>> I can discuss the "why pyo", that's a good question! I have also a word
>>> about the other possibilities of Python and sound.
>>>
>>> First, Python is my workaday language, for different tasks, and I'm a
>>> musician who want to code is music. I used (and continue to use) for many
>>> years Max, Csound and sometimes SuperCollider and these are great programs.
>>> The reason I searched for something else is all these programs have their
>>> own individual syntax and are mostly devoted to sound. I just wanted
>>> something more general that can generate sound. Python was the best for me
>>> but there was no usable sound module in it... so, this is for the "why"!
>>>
>>> Now, the alternatives:
>>>
>>> 1 - using http://sndobj.sourceforge.net/ as Michal as suggested. It's
>>> already a big project.
>>>
>>> Yes, it's a great piece of work from Victor L., but it's a C++ library.
>>> PySndObj is SndObj wrapped with Swig. Wrappers are not an alternative for
>>> me... I tried Swig and the generated python code are very slow. Also, for a
>>> python module, I think it should be simpler...
>>>
>>> 2 - controlling Csound with Python (internally, a strong integration).
>>>
>>> Cecilia, Ounk... I know the game! I wrote pyo especially to replace Ounk (a
>>> python layer over Csound). I want a single integrated environment!
>>>
>>> 3 - controlling SuperCollider server with Python (via OSC).
>>>
>>> Same thing... control layer + audio layer = lots of work around, problems,
>>> ... Anyway SuperCollider doesn't need to be controlled with Python! It's
>>> already a master piece for sound. But a little bit complicated (it's only my
>>> opinion!) and its not a language for general programming.
>>>
>>> 4 - controlling many other sws (e.g. Max/MSP) using Python via OSC. There
>>> was also an external for PD allowing to use Python.
>>>
>>> I used nyptho when I was working with Max, nice object, but also limitted in
>>> some ways... My point is to have Python generating sound from an interface
>>> written with Python. I don't want another software running under my app.
>>>
>>> I think I cover all points! pyo is very useful for me, and maybe for someone
>>> else, I hope! I alreay use it for my SoundGrain software (as a replacement
>>> for Csound) and seriously, it is simpler to code, a lot more CPU efficient,
>>> no more OSC pipes under cover...
>>>
>>> http://code.google.com/p/soundgrain/
>>>
>>> Voilà, have a nice day!
>>>
>>> Olivier
>>>
>>> Le 2 septembre 2010 13:30, Andrea Valle <valle@di.unito.it> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> It seems that everyone is disappointed by the expression "reinveinting the
>>>> wheel".
>>>> Well, I just want to point out, and I quit the discussion because I was
>>>> only interested in the "why pyo" issue, that I wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> at the moment to me, from the external, it might seem that you're
>>>>> reinventing the wheel
>>>>
>>>> as you see, it's quite cautious, as it contains: "to me", "at the moment"
>>>> "might seem".
>>>> It's *not* "you have reinvented the wheel", evidently.
>>>> Modal semantics would have helped.
>>>> In any case, best wishes to the project and to Olivier's work.
>>>> Best
>>>> -a-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 2, 2010, at 6:03 PM, Richard Dobson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I will jump in here and make a few observations:
>>>>
>>>> there is no such thing as "reinventing ~the~ wheel" - we continually need
>>>> all sorts of different wheels, for different vehicles. Wheels are being
>>>> invented all the time.
>>>>
>>>> While may composers love the idea of mixing languages - Python linking to
>>>> SuperCollider running PD patches or whatever, in short - finding the most
>>>> elaborate and complex way possible to do things (which is also a "wheel", i
>>>> guess),  there is also a virtue in having as much as possible within one
>>>> language. SndObj is especially appropriate for people already working in C++
>>>> (STK being another).
>>>>
>>>> For many people, Python is their introduction to programming (remember it
>>>> was promoted by the author as "a new BASIC"), and the last thing such people
>>>> will want to deal with is talking to multiple external languages and
>>>> environments. Confronted with the potential hideousness of trying to connect
>>>> Python to SuperCollider (or whatever) via OSC (itself not exactly
>>>> straightforward), being able to do audio things entirely within a single
>>>> scripting environment is very appealing.
>>>>
>>>> And the idea of "switching" from one all-encompassing environment to
>>>> another in some exclusive way is also IMO a snare and delusion. There is no
>>>> imperative that says people need to do that. You can  use pyo (or whatever)
>>>> and still use SC, PD, Csound whatever as well. Why not? Use it all!  Be
>>>> diverse and flexible!
>>>>
>>>> Richard Dobson
>>>>
>>>> On 02/09/2010 16:35, Andrea Valle wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Audio software and programming (you know it very well) is a wide
>>>>
>>>> scenario, with a lot of things going on.
>>>>
>>>> About Python and audio, I can imagine different situations:
>>>>
>>>> - using http://sndobj.sourceforge.net/ as Michal as suggested. It's
>>>>
>>>> already a big project
>>>>
>>>> - controlling Csound with Python (internally, a strong integration)
>>>>
>>>> - controlling SuperCollider server with Python (via OSC)
>>>>
>>>> - controlling many other sws (e.g. Max/MSP) using Python via OSC. There
>>>>
>>>> was also an external for PD allowing to use Python, if I remember
>>>> correctly
>>>>
>>>> Or, directly using another language, e.g. SuperCollider, is a possible
>>>>
>>>> option.
>>>>
>>>> So, I will be happy to know more about the rationale behind pyo. I'm
>>>>
>>>> sure there is, and I could switch to pyo.
>>>>
>>>> And it would be healthy for Oliver's project to discuss these issues.
>>>>
>>>> You're evidently not ready to discuss them (you're not been able in two
>>>>
>>>> posts), but I'm confident he is. And I will be grateful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> Andrea Valle
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> CIRMA - DAMS
>>>> Università degli Studi di Torino
>>>> --> http://www.cirma.unito.it/andrea/
>>>> --> http://www.myspace.com/andreavalle
>>>> --> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vanderaalle/
>>>> -->  http://www.youtube.com/user/vanderaalle
>>>> --> andrea.valle@unito.it
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> " This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta
>>>> outs, a lotta what-have-yous."
>>>> (Jeffrey 'The Dude' Lebowski)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> 

-- 
Andrés

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