Subject: Re: A good composer
From: Eldad Tsabary (tazberry_docs@yahoo.ca)
Date: Thu Dec 13 2007 - 19:42:58 EST
Hi Larry,
I didn't have any point (I didn't start this discussion). I responded
to PerMagnus's question where this quote was from (a letter from
Stravinsky to Peter Yates) (see below)
If you are asking about my position or opinion then I'd have to answer
that it strongly depends on the definition of stealing. I don't mean
this in an evasive way; a single sentence taken out of its context is
often too ambivalent to respond to coherently.
I would like to redirect your question to PerMagnus who brought this up;
I am curious too as to the origin of his interest in this quote.
However, I would like to elaborate upon your question and reflect on a
possible answer.
It's true that all(most all) of us use models in and for our
compositions; is using someone's model imitation, theft, or neither?
My position is fairly straight forward on this. The creative value is
in what we contribute on top of what we steal/imitate. We are communal
creatures; our scientific and artistic growth is based on collectively
accumulated knowledge. Hypothetically, a completely-autonomous form of
art, lacking any past or future influences would be, in my opinion,
irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as, say, the invisible boy in
the movie mystery man, who had the power to be invisible only when no
one was watching. Composers use other people's ideas in the form of
models (like the usage of the serial model by the second Viennese school
of composers for instance ), and sometimes in the form of content
(plunderphonics) to create new content and new, or enhanced models (like
total serialism).
When we engage in a creative activity, we have an obligation, as in
scientific research, to acknowledge related past ideas but also
contribute one or more ideas of our own. We don't want to reinvent the
wheel in science or in music, but we would contribute to humanity if we
could invent a wheel that didn't slide on ice (sorry...I'm in Montreal);
it would be clear that our invention is not the wheel itself, but its
new property. In research and art newness and acknowledgment are much
more complicated of course. Research is the easier of the two, because
one can acknowledge past ideas through a clearly defined citation and
paraphrasing system. Art is more difficult because (1) there isn't such
a consensual system and (2) there is much less agreement on what would
be considered growth, development, improvement, etc.
In short, I don't think that using an existing model to create something
new is theft or imitation; it's life. There are still ambiguities,
however, in acknowledging past ideas in the arts. Sometimes no
acknowledgment is necessary because the model's origin is obvious, like
in serial compositions (although acknowledgment is often given);
sometimes the model has been so widely used (sonata form) that
acknowledgment is irrelevant. I see acknowledgment in art as part of
the artistic process. When and how to do it should be a creative choice
(one example among many: Berio's Sinfonia)
Thanks for the question and would love to hear your thoughts
Eldad
larryaustin wrote:
> Eldad, what is your point? That Stravinsky said or didn't say that
> "good composers don't imitate, they steal"...what do you, as a composer
> believe? Are you invoking Stravinsky to justify imitating or stealing?
> We all use models...that is, imitate. We all claim our compositions are
> original...we don't steal. What are you trying to ask or declare?
>
> Larry Austin
>
>
> Eldad Tsabary wrote:
>
>> Yes, you can find all of these related quotes in John Dufresne's /The
>> lie that tells a Truth: A guide to Writing Fiction
>> /Check here:
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=Wx153z99WtkC&pg=PA59&dq=lie+that+tells+steals&sig=9fFRWYlHJoqf-jKQLZ0Dw39sDNU
>> <http://books.google.com/books?id=Wx153z99WtkC&pg=PA59&dq=lie+that+tells+steals&sig=9fFRWYlHJoqf-jKQLZ0Dw39sDNU>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Eldad
>>
>> Steve Layton wrote:
>> > The url is too long, but go to Google and search this phrase:
>> >
>> > A good composer does not imitate ralph keyes
>> >
>> > The first link will let you read the relevant passage from Keye's "The
>> > Quote Verifier", that seems to give the more precedence of origin to a
>> > corruption of something from T.S. Eliot, later transferred to both
>> > Picasso and Stravinsky.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Castine" <pcastine@gmx.net>
>> > To: <cec-conference@concordia.ca>
>> > Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 2:40 PM
>> > Subject: Re: A good composer
>> >
>> >
>> >> Is that the only source for the quote?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 13-Dec-2007, at 20:53, Eldad Tsabary wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> A correction, you should look in Peter Yates's /Twentieth-Century
>> >>> Music/ (New York: Minerva Press, 1967), not Salzman's
>> >>> Cheers
>> >>> Eldad
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> PerMagnus Lindborg wrote:
>> >>>> Hello,
>> >>>> Does anyone know the exact reference (publication, interview,
>> >>>> yearS?) to Stavinsky's famous quote:
>> >>>> "A good composer does not imitate, he steals."?
>> >>>> Did he express it in English?
>> >>>> PerMagnus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Dr. Peter Castine p@castine.de Next Concerts
>> >> http://www.castine.de/ Sat 4 Nov 5:00pm
>> >> http://www.bek.no/~pcastine/ <http://www.bek.no/%7Epcastine/>
>> Apostel-Paulus Kirche
>> >> (Berlin-Hermsdorf)
>> >> and
>> >> Sun 5 Nov 7:30 pm
>> >> Centre Bagatelle
>> >> Zeltinger Str. 6, Berlin-Frohnau
>> >> both performances with Lillevan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
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